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Talk:Fontaine Plasmids
Plasmids, Plasmids everywhere and not a drop to drink. Empty Plasmid bottles litter the entire store and yet the frosty splicer is the only splicer who shows and plasmid abilites. Fairly dissapointing if im honest. Night at the Kashmir (talk) 01:15, August 7, 2014 (UTC) After the closing, Fontaine Plasmids was looted and emptied by ADAM-hungry Splicers Assumption? If it was to be used as a prison wouldnt Ryan have had it emptied of potential weapons before the inmates were moved in? (Ditto All customers and business tenants too, and probably well searched for the Fontaine investigation -- evidence of co-conspirators, smuggled goods, etc...) Should probably just say 'emptied'/'cleaned out' (and not by who) to be as vague as the game. 11:46, April 30, 2015 (UTC) :The whole conversion was said by Moses Lydecker to have been done in a rush, perhaps it was overlooked. If it were all cleaned out then why are there all the empty bottles and spilled drops of Plasmids all over the floor? Also, if all of the product had been removed from Fontaine's Department Store, then neither the bottle of Shock Jockey or Old Man Winter in Jack Frost's Village would have been in the Department Store in the first place, thus no quest for the player. This all seems to indicate the Splicers got at the store's still-present stock. :Unownshipper (talk) 18:06, April 30, 2015 (UTC) ::I had the impression that Ryan left the department store intact to illustrate how Parasites will kill each other for whatever resources it holds. There were other places where Plasmids were overlooked too: Ryan the Lion Preparatory Academy (a stock of Possession Plasmids), Cupid's Arrow (Peeping Tom) and the Test-Drive at Bathyspheres DeLuxe (Old Man Winter). Pauolo (talk) 18:40, April 30, 2015 (UTC) :: ::- ::Still even with a rush you wouldnt want to leave any real supply for the inmates to use to try to overwhelm the very meager security used to supervise/feed the prison. Broken (smashed?) bottles and just a few remaining intact ones for us to find (you'd think that the desperate Splicers would have got those by then, but then as mentioned - the plot requires...) left from whatever larger quantities had originally been there (If I was 'smart' Fontaine, I would have pre-move most ADAM stuff away from ALL my assets to secret locations in preperation for my new Atlas adventures.) ::Rather than 'illustrate' (how would the rest of the populace be witness?) it might have been intended to let the inmates kill each other to be rid of them (rather than be warehoused at public expense, yet without actually employing a death penalty - leave them outside the protection of the law they reject... (outlaws) to destroy themselves) ::My point is the stuff probably wasnt just intact and scarfed up by the new inmate Splicer population - Ryans clearing out most to deny to prisoners, Fontaine having removed much of it beforehand, Pissed ex-employees grabbing whatever they could lay their hands on as they were hustled out, THEN the Splicer inmates using up whatever was left (and Atlas using some which was better hidden as bribes to get influence over the inmates). :: 00:55, May 1, 2015 (UTC) :::Sounds possible too, and the Plasmids would have been more of a problem than the jewelery, books, clothes, electronics, etc... But then maybe Ryan only left a portion of the Plasmids and cleaned out the store's warehouse. Frankly when you look at the other stores, it doesn't like they were busy cleaning out what could profit the prisoners. Fontaine's does not even look like prison, more like a place of exile and a small-scale version of Rapture's "all good things on this Earth flow into the city" advertising. That's probably developers choice since they wanted to show Rapture's fall before the fall (as funny as it sounds). Pauolo (talk) 12:42, May 1, 2015 (UTC) :::The main enemy type in BaS is of course the Splicer and we all know how one becomes a Splicer; ADAM abuse. I think the store is conveniently there to explain where everyone got the Plasmids, considering they most likely didn't pack there supply of Bucking Brunco and Shock Jockey before being sent to there new home. :::Fontaine Plasmids is probably my least favorite business in BaS, just because those damn advertisements reading 'Ryan Industries'. I like the way we've tried to explain why the adds read that on the page (Following Frank Fontaine's 'death', Ryan Industries took over control of the Department Store and the businesses within. The remaining stock of drinkable Plasmids was sold, but the merchandise was rebranded with the Ryan Industries logo.), but in all honesty, it dosn't make much sence. :::Shacob (talk) 15:34, May 1, 2015 (UTC) ::::More like relabeled than rebranded. (I know, picky picky) But it's not all that strange. Ryan wanted what Fontaine had and wanted to make it his own. Major companies when they take over another company do the same thing if they keep the product lines going. I would like to mention something though. Fontaine's was not totally cut off from Rapture. The Pneumo's still worked, so some stuff could be sent back and forth. Moses Lydecker was trying to send messages out but they got returned do to "insufficient postage." If something can go out, it can come in. Now I imagine that what was going back and forth was checked and certain things not allowed. Of course where did Atlas get that huge supply of food in the Manta Ray? With "Black Hand" marks on the boxes as well. Maybe Ryan wasn't checking things. (shrug) But if one had enough money one could send stuff down to the prison. Or if the person in the prison had enough money. After all where id all the guns come from? Plasmids probably could have been sent down as well. sm --Solarmech (talk) 19:05, May 1, 2015 (UTC) ::Things was definitely shipped back and forth, if Lydecker could then so could others. And they where they where of course checked (who knows what the prisoners could have sent back to rapture; bombs etc) I think there is a female citizen in The Watched Clock talking about how annoyed she is about the fact that they have to feed them, so we can assume that larger amounts of shipments where sent there. I highly doubt that a department store would have so many weapons as seen in the episodes, like in the Test-Drive, so yes, I'd say that weapons where sent there (if there isn't a "Gertrude's Liquor, Guns & Ammo" ( ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) shop somewhere in the Department store). Frank Fontaine was killed on the 12th of September and The prisoners where sent to the department store on December 22th. This article implies that the department store was still functioning under Ryan between that time? If that is true, then sales most have been bad since there are so many bottles still left in Fontaine Plasmids. --Shacob (talk) 19:37, May 1, 2015 (UTC) :::Prisoners where sent down to Fontaine's before December 2nd. ( Date on Left Behind ) Probably sometime in late November (Some time after the Nov 20th) Remember BaS occurs Dec 31st. Things couldn't have gotten as bad as they did in a little over a week. Looking at around a month. Which means ADAM sickness takes hold FAST. sm --Solarmech (talk) 20:13, May 1, 2015 (UTC) :::That is correct, I got the date from the Rapture Timeline page. The additional "2" most have been added by accented. --Shacob (talk) 21:04, May 1, 2015 (UTC) Its all very messy (plot detail-wise). They probably should have stuck to NOT dating the audio diaries to remain vague (they were already trying to wedge/shoehorn in too many things). Sunk, not sunk, a prison, an exile, fed but unsupervised, running free, Atlas an unknown, or already a ringleader, Fontaines seized/a prison/open, Dead customers ?,lobotomies, Infinite baggage, etc... Where were the prisoners between the shootout and whatever date they started getting dumped in Fontaines. Ryan may have told the employees to grab whatever they wanted (they were losing their jobs) if it all was going to be trashed anyway. If Splicers went insane that fast, then the city would have been in a panic over them already (?? ADAM in use for 3-4 years...) Its DLC that was a contract obligation, that just had to be thrown together, and it was probably already known the company was shutting down. How much did they really care by that point ? 14:45, May 2, 2015 (UTC) :No one denies the plot is full of holes, but there's nothing we can do about it. Also only few among the developers knew IG was going to close, it came as a shock to most. Anyway, since the paragraph in question has been edited to avoid any assumption, I think we can close the thread now. Pauolo (talk) 17:23, May 2, 2015 (UTC) If you don't want to contribute anything useful to the subject at hand, would you kindly not post? sm --Solarmech (talk) 15:19, May 2, 2015 (UTC) The point being : dont have the wiki pages have added assumptions based on vagaries intentional or unintentional by the game writers. Sergeant Joe Friday : "Just the facts mam, only the facts". That can include mentioning (sourcing) contrary/conflicting facts between the different games instead of trying to figure out which ones were 'canon'. example - "Ryan wanted what Fontaine had and wanted to make it his own." OR he wanted to eliminate the whole ADAM thing from poisoning 'his' city (which he already had), but couldnt simply destroy it all (which he could at that point largely done), or all the addicted citizens would implode (even before Kashmir, the major negative effects were already to be seen). "It has to be done VERY carefully " - Wicked Witch of the West... :Don't mind him, he has his opinion on the series' stories just as everyone else here. It's no surprise some articles are making assumptions. You don' write 2240 articles without making some, hence we need to check them. Speaking of which, I've started summarizing There's Something in the Sea - Phase One: The Map and There's Something in the Sea - Phase Two: Mark Meltzer's Room as I go back through There's Something in the Sea (after its initial release 5-6 years ago), but I'm no good at wording in English. So can you check the work I've done so far on the summaries? It really matters to me that this marketing campaign does not fall into oblivion, it was probably what I loved the most in the series. Pauolo (talk) 12:30, May 3, 2015 (UTC) "OR he wanted to eliminate the whole ADAM thing from poisoning 'his' city (which he already had), but couldnt simply destroy it all (which he could at that point largely done), or all the addicted citizens would implode (even before Kashmir, the major negative effects were already to be seen)." Did you even play the game? Ryan developed all kinds new Plasmids for sale and did his best to expand sales as well as boosting production by kidnapping little girls from all over the city. The Little Sisters were Marketing Gold. Ryan never had any intention of "eliminating" ADAM from Rapture even though he was well aware of the negative side effects. Theories are nice, but why don't you look at the know facts before posting. sm --Solarmech (talk) 18:26, May 3, 2015 (UTC) s Ryan developed all kinds of Plasmids ? at what point timewise was that? How much ADAM competition was there in Rapture while Fontaine was still alive? WHEN did the various side effects start manifesting themseleves bigtime so that people knew that there was a significant problem caused by ADAM? Did Ryan expand sales or just put machines in place to eliminate the middleman (maybe alot of bad sideeffects were caused by problematric sellers?) Exactly how many 'little girls' were kidnapped (seems Fontaine had a huge number already to generate all his ADAM, which BTW Ryan inherited), and did Ryan actually do most of this 'kidnapping' you accuse him of ? (dishonest FF underlings, bootleggers, Atlas etc.. also possible perps) And AFTER seeing what ADAM produced : Fontaine's army of Splicers beat the hell out of Ryans Security forces repeatedly (before the 'shootout' when Ryan had to do a major assault and even then it was a mess), Atlas doing the same, and criminally insane crazies having to be sent to Persephone, and the eventual (whenever?) significant public awareness (finally after 4+ years of largescale use??) that ADAM was really poison --- it turned people into maniacs... YOU say Ryan never wanted to get rid of the stuff (if possible?) Facts? You are making alot of assumptions based on a very few vague anecdotal recordings or things just simply unsupported. AND Whenever the disastrous effect of ADAM was obvious, YOU assume Ryan would want to KEEP (and even expand) something that was destroying his city and the people in it ? He has to use ADAM to counter and eliminate Atlas's destructive terrorism first (how many of his security forces did he actually 'Splice up'? did he REALLY need yet more crazies?) And then WHY NOT then find a way to get rid of the destructive stuff completely?? He is well on his way doing the first thing, and never got the chance for the second. Rapture was fine before ADAM poisoned the place and Ryan, if anybody, would have the resources and motive and dedication to eventually banish it. So lets not have assumptions made either way. Thats why the wiki pages should have just the 'facts' (and annotations if the 'facts' seem to change between the games.) 12:40, May 4, 2015 (UTC) :You're done? We're far from the original point so let's cut it now, and please both of you calm the fuck down. :Btw I had to re-install the game (massive pain actually) to check the store myself, and Fontaine Plasmids look like it was ransacked by whoever raided the place. Too many emptied bottles on the ground, Booker's remark about the stores around being emptied by the prisoners. I'm ready to mis-regard the strange logic of leaving a full store (understand 30 to 40 bottles, not a few leftovers) to be ransacked by Splicers, and simply leave it like that on this article. What's more troubling in the level design of this place (and only in the first episode) is that all corpses generated on the maps (frozen ones apart) are unspliced people looking more like customers killed during a riot than prisoners. I won't discuss that detail here, I invite you to debate it over on either the talk pages of Fontaine's Department Store (Business) or Corpse. Pauolo (talk) 20:44, May 4, 2015 (UTC) :All is calm here. People have to be able to demonstrate their evidence when there is a disagreement. :I just demonstrate that there is more than one way to interpret things which we are barely shown in-game, and trying to assume and Declare character motives one way or the other is faulty reasoning. :30-40 bottles would be leavings (broken? -- see Prohibition video of Feds smashing seized barrels of illegal liquor ) a fraction of the entire supply the various selling spots would have kept (look how many cans/bottles of soda are in you local Small grocery store..) Would all of them be real? Just like in our stores, high priced items that might be easily stolen/consumed while the store attendant isnt looking arerewith fakes/empty boxes... The whole thing is too sloppy all round. Yes, why would any (What appear to be) customers/employees have still been in the store ? (I forget if Suchonfg was looking at tear in Blue Fin while Fontaines was already a prison). The security guy who got left behind in the store and is trying to pneumo out for rescue?? Atlas's thugs threatening TransOrbital Lobotomy ... etc... :Strangest, most incompetant 'prison' ever !!! :DLC ... (most games it doesnt matter because the player just want more stuff to shoot, but the Bioshock games were touted for their supposed 'story', so BaS being so thrown together is much more an issue) : 01:30, May 5, 2015 (UTC) ::That's a bit too much complex for game developers to think of. High priced alcohols (to draw a parallel with drinkable Plasmids) would be kept behind the counter or locked in special displays, but never replaced by empty bottles on the shelves because there's never too much place. Fontaine's was a high class establishment, they probably had their own security detail to deal with shoplifting. Also taking a sip from a Plasmid would probably not go unnoticed (having your hand on fire next to the Devil's Kiss stand is to be, forget the pun, literally caught red-handed). ::I know your feelings about the place not looking enough like a prison. I can see details the developers rushed in comparison to maps of Bio1 and 2. Still the place has better looks than the square-shaped rooms of Rapture in previous games, so I just make abstraction of some absurd design for an underwater setting. Also I think the developers contradicted themselves when they start calling it a prison, because the prisoners are definitely free inside. It should be taken figuratively and not literally, the place is just for exile. It is as much a small community as Lamb's "Eden" Persephone, although they're not united and started killing each other on Christmas (thanks for Cohen's gift of a Little Sister). [[User:Pauolo|Pauolo] (talk) 15:10, May 5, 2015 (UTC) ::- ::With the addiction being shown to be strong they eventually would have problems (maybe even with their own employees). Anyway most of it (ADAM) would be gone and amazing that with the desperate inmates, any is even left to find. So much of the rest of the (shops/stores) place is very (too) neat , goods still on shelves, etc - with some number of people being there for weeks (?) who would grab stuff for bedding/whatever. Maybe they (game developers) were planning some other plot it changed, without them adjusting it sufficiently. They were trying for Art Deco (with more asset allowance) which has more curves and odd shapes possible (plus the big space theme like Infinite). ::Exile situations usually are self-sufficient (this place cant be). Really DLC Fontaines was contrived just as a place to dump some Splicers to have shooting for the game, while the player wanders through the showcase 'mall' and is led through the maze Elizabeth plot. It not be much of a game if they were all locked in cells or chained up in a few halls in a plain warehouse (they also didnt want just to repeat the prison in BS2). We got all that they needed/budgeted to do for the DLC, probably quite rushed - it need not be overly logical or fit to the other games details. ::Remember Lambs 'eden' encompassed more than just Persephone - all the areas we went through/past in BS2 and alot more than what we saw. I think they overdid the wreckage state in Persephone, it would have been a big contrast to see it like a clean/ordered hospital compared to the mess of the rest of Rapture. (Ive joked that with Lambs attempt to reorder the World that she couldnt even have he minions slap on a new coat of paint on her HQ) :: 02:18, May 6, 2015 (UTC) :::There were plot changes for sure, one of which was to gather components for Elizabeth to craft a Rapturian Sky-Hook. I guess the developers went with the idea of the transformation of Fontaine's being rushed, though no one would forget large quantities of Plasmids since they were valuable indeed. :::It was contrived, otherwise there would have been no reason for a devastated part of Rapture filled with Splicers. I think they should have never stick to the December 31st 1958 date unless they wanted to show the riots. Having the first episode played like a detective film with non-deformed Splicers would have been better, with perhaps the second episode set during the war only (Elizabeth making her way through the conflict to reach Atlas for example). It would have been better to convey first the Rapture's golden area and then its early fall. I can assume they were trying to appeal to fans of 1960's Rapture only. :::I was thinking more of Lamb during the war, not after. She used Persephone as a sanctuary while the rest of her bases of operations were torn apart or flooded. Btw, when the devs started working on Outer Persephone (nicknamed Eden), they first went with the view you have through the Little Sister's eyes, and later thought of a way to switch with the nightmarish reality. I think the real state of Persephone was to illustrate why she needed her Utopian evolution project: she couldn't maintain Rapture, even with the Splicers under her command, because the knowledge to do so was gone or too rare. Pauolo (talk) 13:15, May 8, 2015 (UTC) :::- ::: Lamb was there for alot of years ~1960 (when Ryan died) through BS2 1968 and somewhere its claimed she ran Rapture (I wouldnt think any more than 1/4th of it) so she had resources, but perhaps the people left just were too crazy (still) to get much done beyond subsistance. The SitS storyline has her starting up the Little Sisters again (~1967), so maybe she finally figured out staying was a dead end (though plotwise Eleanor being ~17 is alot different than her being alot younger, and THAT drove the timeline they used (as well as the Big Sister(s) old enough, which was to be more central to the earlier plot). 7 years is quite long enough for everyone to starve to death if nothing was organized. :::Having the Little-Sister-Vision be the 'real' look of the place (Persephone maintained that way as Lambs World) would have made out Sofia Lamb as bizarro crazier than Sander Cohen (instead with her cold-blooded calmly carried out insanity) -- too fluffy to have proper shoot-em-up action in (too weird for players even if they were told it was some kind of hallucination ). Might have been a 'twist' at the end to have it disclosed that her whole 'Utopian' project was purely a delusion and everyone including Eleanor had just been telling Sofia what she wanted to hear/would accept - (that whole 'memories' merging/evolution thing faked -- or better, Sofia had only delusionally heard/saw it the way she wanted it to be -- her grand project when all she was surrounded by corpses). :::BaSx, they compressed events into the already complicated time period (Sept shootout to Kashmir New Years) with just too many things going on, and like you said Golden Age Rapture being overrun by Deformed Splicers just was too much beyond the old plotlines (but they still kept them for within Fontaine - where they COULD have had it alot more subtle - Elizabeth/Booker trying to sneak around more and some attempted talk to the inmates and then suddenly one becoming crazy or paranoid and setting off the rest (Booker himself, being a splicer, starting to show the same effects might have been interesting). They also played up Atlas running the place too much, when he should have been avoiding the very crazy splicer inmates wandering about , as likely to kill him as Elizabeth/Booker, while trying to get the heck out before they did or the place fell apart/whatever. Overlapping with things in Columbia just added to the mess. :::The "Find the Pieces" (Air Grabber) subplot might have stretched the playtime a bit -- having you have to go halfway BACK through the maze you already went through to get at least one part -- reusing terrain they already had and add some unexpected splicers around a few blind corners... Thoroughly searching for the parts in optional locations (one part being on the table 4 splicers are playing Poker around...) ::: 15:10, May 9, 2015 (UTC) ::::Yup, my thoughts exactly. ::::Well if you want something even weirder, try the drug hallucination scenes in the old version of Dionysus Park (nature-themed in fact) looked like since they probably made them work. We know only of that one from storyboards. Also yes, it would have been an interesting twist at the end of the first Persephone level, one idea sacrificed among many just because people didn't like fighting a single Big Sister and never be rewarded of her death. ::::The Splicers being set off, that reminds me of the first gameplay demo of Infinite with the people at a bar attacking you if you killed the barman. Another interesting idea sacrificed on the altar of gameplay... Anyway, I think they wanted to justify how Atlas got organized Splicers to riot on New Year's Eve (although I never believed of Splicers attacking the Kashmir when first playing Bio1). ::::That sounds more like BioShock to me, to backtrack to find pieces and components. In an other word: exploration. ::::Btw I realized that talking and all is fine, but we made that page our personal forum thread. I'll move most of our talk unrelated to Fontaine Plasmids on a forum page later today. Pauolo (talk) 06:28, May 11, 2015 (UTC) :::::Gentlemen, I'm glad you've resolved this discussion, but I need to interject to ask that nothing be deleted or moved from here. Yes, the discussion wandered from the original topic, but no one should have their comments moved, deleted, or otherwise altered from a Talk Page unless aesthetic changes are being made. I'd rather leave the discussion here so that if someone else brings up the query of whether or not the place was "looted," they can just come here and find their answer. I'm glad this debate is finished and thank you for your cooperation. :::::Unownshipper (talk) 22:00, May 11, 2015 (UTC) When all you look for are problems, the only thing you will find are problems. You will never find explanations, reasons or solutions. sm --Solarmech (talk) 10:09, May 5, 2015 (UTC) Yep, find problems and let people know there are problems so things can get better. Else the customers become good little sheep and pay their money for games that keep getting worse and worse, sloppier and sloppier. That, BTW, is a Solution the game companies dont want to hear about (you see they prefer to take advantage of sheep, if they are allowed to ... so much easier for them). Thats explanations, reasons and solution all wrapped up into one. I cant help it if other people havent a clue (except to mention it to let people know). I suggest you visit the internet and see what more than a few game reviewers said about these games (when I later saw them I wasnt suprised they said many of the things I already had). 13:47, May 5, 2015 (UTC) :Next remark from any one of you that has nothing to do with the thread, I'll delete this whole comment section and leave the essential debate: Fontaine Plasmids looted by Splicers or not. Pauolo (talk) 15:10, May 5, 2015 (UTC)